Master Segarra, I noticed that you have written an article called Su P'a Ri.  I recognize the Japanese rendition Shu Ha Ri as an Aikido or Iaido principle of learning a technique, making the technique your own, and inventing techniques.  The first two keep you constrained in your own Ryu Pa (style), while the last allows you to go beyond style to act instinctively and uniquely based on principles you learned from your Ryu Pa.  Is this the same principle that you teach with Su P'a Ri?  Do you have any sources where you learned about this principle?  From what I've gathered, this is a Japanese concept rather than Korean.

Very well put sir. I never knew that about swimmers. lol Maybe I'll pay more attention to it in the next summer Olympics. Since neither Judo or TKD will get any good time slots. But that's for another thread.

So I don't think anyone should be able to promote themselves or claim they founded something without either proving themselves first or putting their theories to the test or at least putting them out there to be tested.

This should be the way possibly but who is to say what level of proving themselves is enough? And what is the proper way of proving their theories or testing their new way?  Now these are rhetorical questions as no one decides who has the right to form ones own system of defense. And if someone wishes to follow that way is up to them. The tail tale sign is the longevity of the new system.

As to your question of why rank. We all know it was started by Kano to chart progress, but I think it went beyond that as the world changed (ie we went to war) I think this influenced the concept of rank since moo means (loosely) military, the old instructors wanted to feel more inline with what was happening at the time. Of course, there is no hard evidence of this, but the martial arts grew up almost hand in hand with the military in the beginning to middle of the 20th century.

True martial arts grew up with the military and actually was the military in some places. In Korea the military soldier all hold Dan ranks as part of their training. But the martial arts have always had martial levels if you will that was done of a family type status in China, like grandfather, father, elder brother and student (son/child). In Japan the same type of thing was done but they also used menkyo certification as well as titles. 

Another way to illustrate Kano’s tie to sports is the belts being a direct link to the bands swimmers used to denote levels of proficiency. And taking the Dan/kyu structure from the game GO. 

The rank structure is skewed or distorted from what it once was. Testable levels above 3rd or 4th Dan was not the plan, and that in it’s self can show how far it has gotten off tract.

As a founder, then yes you are now “above” rank if you will, because you normally don’t hold rank in your own art. Why? Who above you can promote you?  Now some will hold/claim their old rank. Or go outside their own school for moving up the rank latter.  The reason promotion board from ones own group is used or an outside ranking boards is used is because it is distasteful for many founders to claim “I am a founder so I hold a 10th Dan”.
The topic is a sticky topic as Dan said earlier, but even more so because people see rank as different thinks from school to school and art to art.  This is why there is no rank value out side your own school or association.




Brad

I remember hearing a bout this. Wasn't he found liable in a civil suit & had to pay out a few hundred thousand? Shame.

Master Segarra, I agree with you 100% In your case like  you said,  you created something different. Something unique. I was speaking of someone who teaches TSD, being promoted to a higher rank by his students in TSD. If you wanted, you could as the founders of old did, just step out of the rank system. You are "founder" that's that.

As to  your question of why  rank. We all know it was started by Kano to chart progress, but I think it went beyond that as the world changed (ie we went to war) I think this influenced the concept of rank since moo means (loosely) military, the old instructors  wanted to feel more inline with what was happening at the time. Of course, there is no hard evidence of this, but the martial arts grew up almost hand in hand with the military in the beginning to middle of the 20th century.

imho

Yup, I believe so, I have a book by Chun, I should dig it up, I think TKD CDK

^

from what i have heard and read

^

great post dan

Thanks Master Arce, Interestingly I had a student that I broke contact with and revoked his rank. His behavior was unbecoming of an instructor and he made 2nd Dan with me. After I revoked his rank he claimed he was a 'master' and continued to train with 'masters' which were more lies. His mindset is if I can break away from my instructor and promote others beyond my achieved federation rank, so could he. He failed to understand he had not earned nor learned enough to understand the responsibility of that. He had not created anything unique, special nor contributed to the advancement of the martial arts community and just simply copied others and finally I broke away because the organization refused to right its course not me. So I look at it as the organization left me by not adhering to its principles not the other way around.

If I write or someone else writes a book and then you simply copy it and put your name on it you are a hack, if you learn from my book (or someone else s) and develop something uniquely your own and different although similar you built off of what I did.

So I don't think anyone should be able to promote themselves or claim they founded something without either proving themselves first or putting their theories to the test or at least putting them out there to be tested.