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Bill
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 Posted: Mon May 10, 2004 9:26 am Post subject: Bok Hok Kwon ( White Crane Fist ) = Hakutsuru |
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| Hi Sir's are there any connection of this form with Tang Soo Do? |
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Ondrej
Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 319
Location: Slovakia
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2004 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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The thing is that White Crane Fist is a very, very broad system of many different styles more than a single form.
Yes, there are some Okinawan forms called White Crane (Hakutsuru, 白鶴) based either on Matsumura's style or on Wu Xianhui's teachnigs but as far as I know, none of these is commonly practised in TSD circles.
As for connection between TSD and White Crane, we can say there is a link as TSD developed from karate which was in turn influenced a lot by Fujian White Crane styles. Many techniques of Okinawan karate, especially Matsumura's style, and Fujian White Crane are very similar or almost identical and these similarities could be sometimes traced even in TSD. For instance, the form Seisan is said to be a Crane based form.
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Ondrej Slechta |
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dosandojang
Ko Dan Ja
Joined: 08 Apr 2004
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Location: Los Angeles, CA., USA
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Ondrej
Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 319
Location: Slovakia
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| dosandojang wrote: | | Ondrej, is not Sei San a Preying Mantis Form? I thought Chinto/Jinto, and Lo/Ro Hai were Crane (Heron) forms? JH? Anyone? |
Seisan is actually common to many Chinese systems including White Crane, Five Ancestors, Lohan boxing, Lion boxing, Dragon boxing and according to some sources even to Praying Mantis.
I have heard that Tomari Seisan (called by some Matsumura Seisan), source of TSD's Seisan is also very similar to so-called Four Gates Hand (四門手) form of Praying Mantis but I was unable to verify it.
Kinjo Akio, a famous Okinawan karate researcher, maintains that the source of original Seisan is Fujian Yong Chun White Crane system.
As for Chinto, I don't believe that this form comes from a Crane system as there is nothing in the form to suggest it but the one-leg stance that is absent from its older versions.
Old versions of Rohai do have one-leg stance but again - no other techniques typical for White Crane so we can not say for sure where it comes from.
It is commonly thought that one-leg stance is what distinguishes Crane systems from others but typical Crane stuff is more about techniques ressembling Crane's wings and beak.
White Crane is actually very similar to Matsumura's style and also to old Naha systems which I can confirm because White Crane is besides Taiji the only Chinese system I gave a try to out of curiosity.
We can think of Gojushiho (Osipsabo) as a representative of Crane in TSD. Note series of spear-hand techniques on main axes, open hand blocks (actually throws) after the first 270 turn and especially two Crane beak strikes.
Oshipsabo is also mentioned in Okinawan Bubishi which is a textbook of Fujian White Crane and Lohan boxing.
Please refer to THIS article for further details.
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dosandojang
Ko Dan Ja
Joined: 08 Apr 2004
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Location: Los Angeles, CA., USA
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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Ondrej, THANK YOU AGAIN FOR A GREAT POST! JH, is this guy something else or what?  He is our library! Ondrej, I really wish you would join the ITSDA! Thanks again for the great info.....
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DO SAN DOJANG
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Do San Martial Arts
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dosandojang
Ko Dan Ja
Joined: 08 Apr 2004
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Location: Los Angeles, CA., USA
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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Ondrej, while we are talking about throws....I have another questio that is off of this topic...Someone (an old TSD and Yudo Master) told me that there is a throw (Osoto Gari?) in Bassai Dai. I have been doing this Hyung since the late 70's, and I still have a hard time finding where, if any, there is a throw?
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DO SAN DOJANG
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KungFuRen
Ko Dan Ja
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 506
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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I can see it... at the end when you go almost to one knee... that interpretation makes sense, assuming we are discussing the same throw.
Ondre,
I was flipping through some of Dr. Yang's stuff, and he talks about the White Crane system, and its being the root of Okinawan Karate. How similar is WC to Karate? Are the similarities recognizable?
Thanks in advance.
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Frank Clay |
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dosandojang
Ko Dan Ja
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Frank, that is where he said it was! After the last double punch with the left hand on top, you turn quickly to the front and drop to one knee and execute an right hand outside block. Is this right?
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dosandojang
Ko Dan Ja
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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Ondrej, I have always been told that Chinto/Jinto was a Heron Hyung, and a piece of your article says it might even be...
(Regarding the Crane connection) It is interesting that there is this link between the Yong Chun style and the Red Junks. David Peterson writes:
". . . the system was transmitted down the coast and along the rivers of south-eastern China by the people who ply those waters, such as fishermen, traders, opera junk performers and others, who would have had a use for good fighting skills and many an opportunity to test, refine and exchange skills." (http://www.wingchun.com/Altwc3.htm)
This may or may not have an Okinawan connection. Remember that Matsumura encountered a Chinese sailor and learned a kata from him by the name of Chinto/Jinto. The Kata Chinto is said by many to be of a Chinese Haktsuru style. It is possible that Chinto may have come from Chih Shan's lineage by way of this connection, since this says that it may have been transmitted along the coast. It is said that Chinto was shipwrecked on Okinawa. It is likely that that ship was a junk that he was on.
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KungFuRen
Ko Dan Ja
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 2:59 am Post subject: |
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Steve,
That is where I was thinking. Let me qualify that by saying Japanese is not my strong suit, especially Judo terminology, so I could also be WAYY off.
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dosandojang
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Ondrej
Joined: 22 Apr 2004
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Location: Slovakia
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| dosandojang wrote: | | Ondrej, while we are talking about throws....I have another questio that is off of this topic...Someone (an old TSD and Yudo Master) told me that there is a throw (Osoto Gari?) in Bassai Dai. I have been doing this Hyung since the late 70's, and I still have a hard time finding where, if any, there is a throw? |
There are several techniques that can be used as throws in Passai. Some of them are taught in classical Okinawan schools and are told to be "original", some of them are a result of reverse engineering.
1) Taniotoshi (to push off a clif, I think it is called seoi-nage in Judo) - a hidden throw right after the first technique. You intercept his right punch with your left open hand block while performing atemi strike with your right back fist. Note the cross leg-stance which usually suggests that a hidden turn is following. Then throw him over your right shoulder.
A classical form of taniotoshi is here, just imagine the first technique of Bassai instead what the guy is doing on the picture.
2) Komanage (spinning top, somehow similar in Ikkyo in aikido) - 3rd and 4th technique in Bassai. Imagine he is holding your right wrist with his right hand. Reverse the grip by performing right outward middle block, turn 180 just like in the form while applying inward middle block right behind his elbow and see him flying by your righ side.
Classical Komanage is here, just imagine starting from the left front stance just like in hyung.
3) See the last middle block combo in the beginning? Righ defence against the kick and following with inward middle block (as performed in TSD)? Block his right kick, hook it (folding action for the following block) and use the inward middle block to throw him on his back.
4) Udewa (to encircle with arms). See the double hammer fist to ribs in the middle of the form? He is trying to grasp you with both his hands. Block them with double upper block, you may add a headbutt here, then grasp his thighs, throw him on his back and finish by a right punch to groin (inthe form performed as middle punch). Udewa is here, just without the final punch.
5) Yaridama (to spear a ball) - traditionally taught in Wanshu but can be applied in Bassai to - right in the place you applied osotogari. If he attacks with his righ hand, block it with your left while punching him to plexus solaris or groin. If he attacks with his left hand, block it with your right hand while attacking his face with your left. Then grasp him with both hands by his right shoulder and groin and throw him around. Just like here.
There can be aboud 1 or 2 more but these are basics.
Best regards.
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Ondrej Slechta |
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Ondrej
Joined: 22 Apr 2004
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Location: Slovakia
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| KungFuRen wrote: | | I was flipping through some of Dr. Yang's stuff, and he talks about the White Crane system, and its being the root of Okinawan Karate. How similar is WC to Karate? Are the similarities recognizable? |
I can see many similarities, mainly between old Matsumura style and WC, and also between Naha styles and WC.
When comparing karate with five basic southern Shaolin forms (Siu Lam Ng Kuen, not to be confused with 5 animal fists) that one first learns before learning the Crane system, there are many almost identical techniques. All basic blocks, kicks and strikes are virtually the same.
Also, many techniques from White Crane forms can be found in many Okinawan forms.
For example some techniques of old Passai: where Itosu introduced a series of middle blocks in the beginning of the form, there was originally a down pressing block followed by other hand eyes finger strike performed in cat stance. This is a typical crane technique that can be found in some forms.
Another example: the technique in the beginning of Seienchin - open hand outward middle block followed by spear hand - can be seen in one of the basic WC form called "Crane entering a cave" (入洞鶴, Iptonghak in Kor.) where it is called Paekhak piyang.
Or White Crane Chinna: one of the basic techniques is very similar to the elbow "blocks" in the 2nd half of Pyung Ahn 3. Imagine an attacker holding your belt or left wrist with his right hand. Step back with your left foot to horse stance and apply a pressure on his left elbow with your right elbow. (it is necessary to lean forward a bit so that the pressure on the attacker's elbow is applied from above downward).
One has similar "feeling" when practising sparing drills of Okinawan karate and WC drills and it is of a great help in research of forms' meaning.
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dosandojang
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KungFuRen
Ko Dan Ja
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Steve.
Ondre... do you have any resources I can use to further my knowledge of this material? Perhaps I should invest in Dr. Yang's book?
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